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Subject: RE:  RE: Functional Spec : Increase the number of TCP connections - for review
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:07:39 -0800
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Thread-Topic:  RE: Functional Spec : Increase the number of TCP connections - for review
thread-index: Acc83H7MadyOqtJqQluj02kZHxGfjAAHozGwAFjFkyA=
From: "Shamsudeen Jeseem" <jeseem@onstor.com>
To: "Jonathan Goldick" <jonathan.goldick@onstor.com>,
	"dl-Design Review" <dl-designreview@onstor.com>,
	"Narayan Venkat" <narayan.venkat@onstor.com>

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Hi Jonathan,
	Will update the FS.
Pls. see the other comments. ( points not commented are where I would
update the FS. On others waiting for input)

_____________________________________________
From: Jonathan Goldick=20
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 5:26 PM
To: Shamsudeen Jeseem; dl-Design Review; Narayan Venkat
Subject: RE: Functional Spec : Increase the number of TCP connections -
for review

1.	Update the copyright to 2007.  Jay made a new template somewhere
with all this stuff handled.
2.	In section 1, there is a typo in the MRD link, you have an extra
space in front of "Delorean MRD-PRD-REV1-7.xls"
3.	In section 4, is Cheetah really not required?  I only ask
because the MRD mentions Nissho by name and their customers have
Cheetah(s).  Narayan, please comment.
4.	In section 4, is CLUSDB_REC_TYPE_CORE_DUMP a typo?  I'm missing
why we would put this under core dump but perhaps this relates to the
comment in section 7 about avoiding a migration; it just seems confusing
so I thought I'd ask.  Anyways, is it really required that we make this
configurable?  Perhaps it's acceptable to just detect the model number
and set the value?  If we could make this hard-wired per model number
then we could cut out a number of the tasks and make this an easier
project and test effort.  Narayan, please comment.
	[jes]  since we want to store only 4 bytes per filer, didn't
make sense to add a new record type and increase clusterDB size. Also we
will have had to define upgrade path.
	CLUSDB_REC_TYPE_CORE_DUMP was the only per filer record in
clusterDB, that we found was zero-initialized and so usable.=20

	Hard-wiring per model number : increasing the connection count
would have a memory overhead, since we currently pre-allocate connection
structs, mbufs, tcp stats in ssc. Hence wanted to make this
configurable.
	Implementation wise, presently planning to copy this as bootup
environment to TXRX (which persists across reboots), so maynot be more
difficult than detecting hardware model, only more flexible to user.

5.	Can we make section 7.1 its own major section since testing is
not really a sub-chapter of Migration Strategy?
6.	In section 7.1, can we add a test where we send some load, even
if it's low, across all the connections?  We need to know if the number
of Ops we can service changes dramatically if the load is spread across
a lot of connections versus our normal tests with very few connections.
7.	In section 7.1, we probably should add a statement that we are
not able to make sure that this many connections will work properly with
LinkAggregation set up.  While inn practice I would expect customers to
use something to spread such a huge load around, we just don't have the
infrastructure to simulate that number of clients in a way that
exercises LinkAggregation.  This is probably more of a test about
whether the switches actually function properly anyways.
8.	Once you get all of this working in a networking sense we need
to determine whether it works in practice with so many CIFS or NFS
connections.  If we could handle 1000 CIFS logons with Kerberos in 10
seconds(making this number up for discussion purposes) then 32K CIFS
connections is about 5 minutes and makes sense, but is 128K really
achievable and across how much time would we have to spread the initial
connects to avoid overloading the auth-agent?  There is a similar issue
for NFS mounts with non-trivial export options (NIS netgroups).  While
what you are proposing looks pretty complete from a networking (NCPU)
layer, I think we need more on the CIFS/NFS/Auth-Agent layer changes
that might be required to make such a large number of connections
actually usable.
	[jes] quite true. 128k connections wouldn't make much sense.
(apart from sales pitch).



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<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Jonathan,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Will update the =
FS.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">P</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">ls.</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"> see the other comme</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">n</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">ts.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> ( points =
not commented are where</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would =
update the FS</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">O</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">n</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">others waiting for input</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>_____________________________________________<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>From:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2> Jonathan =
Goldick<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>Sent:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2> Saturday, =
January 20, 2007 5:26 PM<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>To:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2> Shamsudeen =
Jeseem; dl-Design Review; Narayan Venkat<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><B></B></SPAN><B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>Subject:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2> RE: =
Functional Spec : Increase the number of TCP connections - for =
review</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Update the copyright to 2007.&nbsp; =
Jay made a new template somewhere with all this stuff =
handled.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">In section 1, there is a typo in the =
MRD link, you have an extra space in front of &#8220;Delorean =
MRD-PRD-REV1-7.xls&#8221;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">In section 4, is Cheetah really not =
required?&nbsp; I only ask because the MRD mentions Nissho by name and =
their customers have Cheetah(s).&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Narayan, please comment.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">4.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">In section 4, is =
CLUSDB_REC_TYPE_CORE_DUMP a typo?&nbsp; I'm missing why we would put =
this under</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">core dump but =
perhaps this relates to the comment in section 7 about avoiding a =
migration; it just seems confusing so I thought I</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&#8217;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d =
ask.&nbsp; Anyways, is it really required that we make this =
configurable?&nbsp; Perhaps it</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&#8217;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s acceptable to =
just detect the model numb</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">e</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">r and set the =
value?&nbsp; If we could make this hard-wired per model number then we =
could cut out a number of the tasks and make this an easier project and =
test effort.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#FF0000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Narayan, please =
comment.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>
<UL>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">jes</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">]</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us">&nbsp;<FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">since we =
want to store only 4 bytes per filer, didn</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&#8217;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">t make sense to add a new =
record type and</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">i</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">ncrease clusterDB size. Also we will have had to define =
upgrade path.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">CLUSDB_REC_TYPE_CORE_DUMP</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> was the =
only per filer record in clusterDB, that we fou</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">n</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">d</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">w</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">as zero-initialized</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> and =
so</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">usable</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">H</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">ard-</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">wiring per model number :</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">i</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ncreasing the connection count =
would have a memory overhead</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, since we currently =
pre</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">allocate</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">connection structs, =
mbufs,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">tcp stats in ssc</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">H</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ence</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">wanted to make this =
configurable.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Implementation wise,</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">p</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">resently</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">planning</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">to</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">c</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">opy this as</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">bootup</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">e</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">nvironment</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">to</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">T</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">XRX</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> (which persists across =
reboots)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, so</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">maynot be</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">m</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">ore difficult</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">than detecting hardware =
model</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">, only more flexible to user</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>
</UL>
<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">5.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Can we make section 7.1 its own =
major section since testing is</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> not really a sub-chapter of Migration Strategy?</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">6.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">In section 7.1, can we add a test where we send =
some load, even if it</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&#8217;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s low, across all =
the connections?&nbsp; We need to know if the number of Ops we can =
service changes dramatically if the load is spread acr</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">oss a lot of connections versus our normal =
tests with very few connections.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">7.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">In section 7.1, we probably should add a statement =
that we are not able to make sure that this many connections will work =
properly with LinkAggregation set up.&nbsp; While inn practi</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ce I would expect customers to use =
something to spread such a huge load around, we just don</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&#8217;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">t have the infrastructure to simulate that number =
of clients in a way that exercises LinkAggregation.&nbsp; This is =
probably more of a test about whether the switches a</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">c</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">tually function properly anyways.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">8.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Once you get all of this working in a networking =
sense we need to determine whether it works in practice with so many =
CIFS or NFS connections.&nbsp; If we could handle 1000 CIFS logons with =
Kerberos in 10 seconds(making this</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"> number up for discussion purposes) then 32K CIFS connections is =
about 5 minutes and makes sense, but is 128K really achievable and =
across how much time would we have to spread the initial connects to =
avoid overloading the auth-agent?&nbsp; There is a similar</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">i</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">ssue for NFS mounts with non-trivial export options (NIS =
netgroups).&nbsp; While what you are proposing looks pretty complete =
from a networking (NCPU) layer, I think we need more on the =
CIFS/NFS/Auth-Agent layer changes that might be required to make such a =
la</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">r</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ge number of connections actually =
usable.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>
<UL>
<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">jes</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">]</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> =
quite true. 128k connections wouldn</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&#8217;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">t make much =
sense</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(apart from</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">s</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#3366FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ales =
pitch).</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>
<BR>
</UL>
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